More religion

[pasithea]

Banned Ilthuian since his inability to read is matched only by his inability to provide a valid arguement to what I said and his ability to revise history.

I was quite honest up front that I'd ban anyone making the claim that I was intolerant simply because I refused to capitulate to their point of view without any proof. It's simply a waste of time to argue with a child about their imaginary friend. (This statement is metaphorical, of course)

Besides. Had my friend read more carefully, he might have been as astute as to notice that I never debated whether or not God exists. God's existance is totally superfluous to the validity of religion. My point in fact was that if God does exist, either religion serves no purpose because God is utterly beyond any human understanding, and we're so small as to be completely insignificant to him OR God is so small that he is unworthy of worship and nothing more than a parasite to humanity.

God does not matter to religion and all religions are specifically designed to operate without the presence of God at all. What is the point to something that exists to serve a purpose which can never be met?

It's probably also worth noting that I did not target the value of ritual, spiritualism, or even mysticism. Believe in Santa Claus if you like. Just don't let it rule your life.

You can take my banning him as a sign of 'intolerance' if you like, but consider carefully. Do you shake your head sadly at the people in line at the super market that gossip about the headlines in the Enquirer? The people convinced that the communists are tainting our precious bodily fluids with floride? The people who think that George Bush Jr is the greatest president ever. Am I 'intolerant' or do I simply disagree with someone that you can provide no proof for?'

Ilthuian made some 20+ posts on the thread and provided not one spec of proof for the validity of worshipping God. I gave him more than ample time to make a worthwhile case, so if he protests this now, he has only himself to blame.

Good eve.

Comments

Looking for nits

[frith]

God as a parasite (or figment) of the human social psyche is explored, albeit obliquely, by some authors in the Thieves' World anthologies (Asprin, ed.).

Letting Santa Claus rule your life goes part and parcel with simplifying/clarifying your life. The desire for simplicity through surrender to a leader is innate, ergo Santa.

[rigelkitty.livejournal.com]

ilthuain is part of a cruel little blog gang/club that consists of mharpold8, kyhwana, and a few others. When one of them is contested about something, you'll find the others alerted and jumping in to flood and tear the journal owner apart, as they did in your space. When reason fails (or is quickly abandoned, which is more often the case), they turn to insults and/or defamation. It's schoolyard bullying, Internet-style. They pride themselves on being assholes, like that's some kind of good thing.

[kyhwana.livejournal.com]

Well, _actually_ if you'd bothered to read the comments on the religion post(s) you would have seen that I am in stark disagreement with most of what ilthuain had to say on the subject and that I agree with most dv_girl's points.

But no, instead you lump me in with those two again, and incorrectly this time. Good work.

[squnq.livejournal.com]

bugs bunny livejournal icons are so 1983

[rigelkitty.livejournal.com]

Please. You know exactly why.

I am so not fighting with you.

[kyhwana.livejournal.com]

Yeah, because andy's a religious zealot and i'm a militant atheist, so I magically agree with him about everything including religion.

Just in case you don't believe it, i'll say for the record I "came over" here not because they told me to, but because I had to throw in my 2 cents because it's about a topic i'm "interested" in. (Or maybe I just wanted to argue with all these religious people (including andy!))

[shatterstripes.livejournal.com]

*shrug* After that kerfuffle when he accused my boyfriend of being an evil manipulative bastard who's the source of all evil in the fandom, I pre-emptively banned him and his little yapdog friend Windsagio from my journal, too.

Okay, the comment, which hopefully won't piss you off...

[paka.livejournal.com]

I really like your point that religion and God can be separately debated.

I think that if there's a validity to worshipping any specific version of divinity, it's in seeking or realizing what is godlike within yourself. Outside of that there's a mess of reasons to be religious, and some of those reasons are utter crap (ie, you go to synagogue because we've always done it, and maybe you might meet a nice Jewish girl there. I hate that bullshit!).

If one's an atheist, of course, hope and responsibility both get dumped on your shoulders; I feel like in that sense, belief in God is a shortcut, but using a shortcut isn't always going to be spiritually rewarding. I feel like once you start spouting really pat succinct answers about the One True Faith or whatever you really aren't getting anything out of the deal. Yeah, the superficial approach makes some people happy, but ultimately it creates bigotry and dumb bumper sticker slogans, rather than any true attempt to comprehend the universe and one's place there.

God or no God, ultimately religion is a tool. It's there to understand the universe and suggest our place in it. Or it's there as a crutch (crutches are useful enough as long as eventually you aren't abusing 'em, like you said). Or it's there as a way to set out guidelines for how to live.

So; tool. The more dogmatic the tool, the less useful it is - the difference between having a general all purpose theological wrench, and having very specifically a .3 mm (or whatever) theological socket wrench. I still think the tool might be useful for me, so I'm exploring whether that's the case. Obviously it's not a very useful tool for you at all, so why should you use it?

And (a little less philosophical, and more about how people use religion a lot in this country), once one starts using any wrench to bludgeon people, its use as a tool for anything else becomes debatable.

Re: Okay, the comment, which hopefully won't piss you off...

[acertaindoebear.livejournal.com]

This is excellent, m'dear -:)

I also find it interesting that in the religons I have checked out, the whole idea of a God or God isn't taken literally and that God is an Unknown (as well as being a Known) and that this is embraced and a vital part of their beliefs.

I'm still learning, but I'm of the belief that religion boils down to what stories, laws, myths, etc inform you that gives one purpose, that enable one to make ethical and moral decisions.

Plus, religion is just too much fun -:)

Reposted because I blew the Bold Tag hard

[steinhustler.livejournal.com]

Ilthuain tells me:

Hey! You never responded to me or challenged my ideas! What gives? How the heck am I supposed to defend my position if you don't even say a damn thing?

Also, I don't think my point was ever "Let Me Prove God". I just never said that, nor do I think I can. Believe it or not, I have zero interest in converting people to my religion... which is funny because you don't even know what my religion is. All I was advocating was the 'open mind' thing, as well as the embrace of tolerance rather than grumbling, angry reaction.

Bah, oh well. I still think you're a cool person, and FYI, you could just say, "Hey, stop posting, I want to rant" and it would've been golden. I can get along with atheists, I'm married to a Hindu (a faith I disagree with) and a Deist (ditto), and I can't think of a single time when our different faiths have ever caused a problem. Why can't we all just sit around and talk about this stuff?

Whatever you gotta do is what you gotta do. This is a little upsetting, 'cause I dig you in person, and I can't jive you saying this sort of stuff to my or anybody else's face with intent to harm. Maybe I should be more annoyed at the internet, where people who are wholly silent about their faith are cast as fanatics, your computer choice is a reflection to character, and the struggle for a peaceful middle ground is a sign of intellectual weakness.

But hey, have a good time making up crap about me. One thing is certain, the internet has never and will never value truth over the strength of a good story.

-Andy

-End Transmission-

[xydexx.livejournal.com]

Ilthuain just likes to stir up shit for the sake of arguing. I gave his drama-addicted crew the boot months ago.

[kyhwana.livejournal.com]

BUT wait! No you didn't!

I don't know Ilthuian, don't seem to want to.

[plucky.livejournal.com]

You have a chicken in your corner. I don't believe in any god, it doesn't make any sense to me. You will find that religionists who are particularly defensive will generally accuse those who disagree with them as intolerant and claim that they are being persecuted when you ask them to leave you alone. Religion should not be in the public arena, morals and ethics are fine for society without having a father or mother figure to spank baby. You are right, religion is about control pure and simple. A way to control behavior and gives people a way to accept shitty situations without having to change them. It is fine to have an archetype to emulate, a collection of ideals and morals that you think embody the perfect being that you wish to copy, but worshiping a creature simply because you think it exists and has more power than you? You might as well worship Bill Gates. Hard work and firm intent goes pretty damn far. Anyways, I know that this post is slightly off topic and more related to previous lines so please forgive me but I wanted you to know that I support your worldview in this, that you are not alone in shying away from people who see fairies in the corner of their doublewide trailer. :)