Your religion is stupid.

[pasithea]

As the title implies, this is directed at everyone, not just 'those christians' or something. Maybe I'll lose some friends over it but I need to say it.

Your religion is stupid. They're all stupid. They're a waste of time and they benefit the world NOTHING.


Blahblahblah god saved me from drinking/got me through some rough times/etc.
I know you're going to say it, I've heard it before. It's BULLSHIT. God didn't get you through jack. Maybe having a fantasy got you through it but it was your own inner strength that got you through it.

There aren't any fucking miracles. There's the skill of surgeons, the many years of study and education of people who make the world better, and there's random chance. It wasn't God that removed a tumor. It was a doctor. It was a nurse, an anesthesiologist, hundreds of years of study, etc. It's not a 'miracle we thank god for every day' that you survived. If you want to believe in God, who the fuck put the tumor there, huh? Was that just bad luck and then God came along and saved you? Riiiight.

Pissed off yet? Why? I guess there's some embarassment if you're the last kid of the block to realize there's no Santa Claus but that's life, and you grow up an learn that the spirit of giving is more important that your childish greed.

And that gets me to my proof that religion is stupid.

The universe is a HUGE place. We're tiny little specs on a single planet. Our planet is a tiny spec in our solar system. Our Sun is in a galaxy which contains more stars than all the people on Earth, and even our galaxy is just a spec in the universe and that's just what we can see with our limited senses. There could be millions of dimensions. We are so tiny that you can't even begin to understand it. It's utterly beyond us.

That puts us in quite a quandry for talk of God. You have two options if you REALLY want to believe in God. God is infinite and holds the entire universe or God is finite and limited.

If God is infinite, religion is supremely arrogant. To think for even a second that God made use masters of the universe, or cares in the slightest that we obey some absurdist set of rules is completely juvenille. It's akin to a 2-year-old who thinks they are the center of mommy's universe. The religious are but toddlers throwing a tantrum and banging some pots together. Furthermore: All the religious leaders say you must worship God in THEIR way. Books capture only a piece of a moment. They tell you only what the author sees. Two people experience a situation differently. If God is this vast and uncomprehendible, ANY attempt to describe it are utterly pointless. No book, no story, no set of rules will ever possibly be adequate. I know a hundred million times more about God than any religious person. There's no way you can disprove that. Just cling childishly to nonsensical texts, stamp your feet and say you MUST be right because someone wrote a book on it. It's stupid.

If God is finite, you're even more stupid. Now you've got the possibility for multiple Gods. Which one is the right one? There's no way to chose. Taking the religion your parents took is a damn poor ignorant way to chose. If you put any thought into it, you're just going to chose the one that's convenient. The one that you like the best. Determining your vision of the ruler of the world by a popularity contest based on the opinions of others. SHEER GENIUS. And what of the choices? Fucking rotten lot there. All of them have their bad parts. The best you could do is maybe buddism but that's more like atheism with some religious decorations on the outside. Most of the other Gods are petty and selfish, chilidish. Why would you WANT to worship a God that says you must suffer? If you're gay or eat pork or drink wine or whatever it is against your religion and God is going to punish you for all eternity because you weren't an obedient child, why would you WANT to worship that God? That's not love or caring. That's abuse and domination. If a stranger corner you in an alley and said, 'GET ON YOUR KNEES AND SUCK MY COCK OR I'LL BREAK YOUR KNEES', you probably wouldn't be talking about how great he was in the morning. You'd feel violated, hateful, resentful, vengeful. The finite God that makes demands is nothing but a petty thug. Who needs him? And if your God doesn't care what you do, what's the point in worshipping them?

I know you want to 'justify' your beliefs. You want to say 'God gives me comfort' or 'cultural heritage' or something else like that. It's all a bunch of excuses so you don't have to think about it. If you're angry, or trying to come up with a justification for your religion. Rather than bothering me with it and wasting my time debating your childish rage. Why don't you just think about why you're angry? I mean sure, it's because of what I said, but what specifically about it makes you angry. If you think you're smarter than me, I'd love to hear you prove to me beyond any shadow of doubt that YOUR religion is THE right one and that all of those other religions are wrong. Your proof must be rational enough that anyone will accept it. Even the most devout baptist, muslim, or hindu. And don't bother with the 'I just have a special feeling.' thing. That's not only unprovable, it's a lie. Maybe one that you believe but a lie none-the less. If you need proof, you need only look at the divorce rates. How many people have said, 'forever' and lost that conviction in less than a year.

When you work through your anger or contempt or whatever, please consider this: YOU have a lot of power within you. You can work to MAKE the world a better place. YOU have your own inner strength. All those bad times you got through was because YOU are strong. God, like Santa Claus. Nothing more than a lie to pacify children. You're a better person since you came to understand Santa was an idea instead of a person. You can grow even more if you let go of God. Learn to believe in yourself and the strength and beauty of all the other people around you. If you think the stories about God made you a better person. Fine, keep that. Use it. Just use it wisely. You can understand even more from the story once you accept that it's only fiction.

If you want to repost this, you may.
If you agree with me but you're afraid to take the heat for it, go ahead and reference this.
If you want to unfriend me. That's fine. I'm really that sick of religion and there are plenty of other people out there, and you can probably find someone else who doesn't challenge you as much.
If you want to scream and throw a tantrum, I'll ban you from my journal.
If you want to quietly suck it in an pretend I didn't say it, that's your choice. I'm sad you don't want to think about it.
If you think you can prove your religion is the right one and that your God is real beyond any shadow of a doubt, I'd love to hear it. Just make sure you've got a good tangible argument.
If you think you're clever and you're going to point out that I'm one of those nasty liberals who talks about freedom of thought but doesn't REALLY mean it. Save it. First off, that's a personal attack and has NOTHING to do with my arguments. Second: I would WELCOME an intelligent counter. Saying something ignorant like that is just a feeble attempt to change the topic. Lastly, it's not even a valid argument. This is my journal. I can ban anyone I want. I am NOT trying to prevent you from making a fool of yourself in public. I just don't feel like wasting my time on your ignorance.

Finally, if you're one of those ignorant pieces of produce who says, 'well, I guess we'll find out who's right in the end.' with the implication that God is gonna punish me for my attitude, not only are you a stupid fuck who hasn't listened at all but you're also a coward. I'd RATHER die on my feet in opposition to an abusive twisted little fuck than spend eternity stroking his ego. Don't say you'll pray for me anyhow or whatever. That's just disrespectful, and I'd just spit in your God's face.

That's it for now. I may add some more to this later.

Comments

[neogeen.livejournal.com]

...Then there are those of us that never once mention religion, but are still highly religious.

I hope you have a good one.

[kinkyturtle.livejournal.com]

I'm not afraid to say I agree with you!

[revar.livejournal.com]

Woo! I've thought some of these things myself, but daaaaaaaaamn!

*Gets out a silver fireproof suit, a long metal fork, and some marshmellows. Sits back to watch the fireworks.*

[ilthuain.livejournal.com]

Jeez, this is kinda silly.

On the other hand, I am glad that you personally have it all figured out. Good on you! (That was kinda a snark, but hey...)

That said, I can understand some issue with people who use religion as a tool, but c'mon, do you really mean all this stuff? If you want to discuss this in a serious way, I'd be happy to take this... whatever it is... point by point and attempt to defend religion as a whole. I know I hardly know you, but you were nice to my husband and I do know a thing or two about theology, so it might be a good time.

Or you can ban me. Either way.

[ataramos.livejournal.com]

The only thing I could think of through this was 'god's work isn't done by god, it's done by people' -- ani difranco 'up up up up up up'

Kevin Smith is God ;-)

[pathia.livejournal.com]

I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant.

I think her main angst is against organized religion, which I don't believe you're all that supportive of, though we haven't had a religion discussion really.

[kyhwana.livejournal.com]

Of course, said people "think" they're doing the work of god.
Personally I lay on the "these people are crazy" side of the spectrum, due to the fact that you can't prove it one way or the other, so why exactly are these people doing the supposed work of god?

[turbinerocks.livejournal.com]

This guy really likes his van. And Jesus. (http://www.themiraclesofjesusministry.org/jesusvangiver.htm)

[ataramos.livejournal.com]

I think that it's likely that they're trying to feel humble and that they're doing a good thing with no 'selfish' reasons, and because they do believe in a god, they're covering their asses.

Catholics have the coolest stuff, and I'm man enough to admit it.

[ilthuain.livejournal.com]

I think her main angst is against organized religion, which I don't believe you're all that supportive of

Respectful disagreement on two points.

1) I think she was pretty clear about being down on all religion. I'm not trying to make this personal, but I am actually quite religious, although not of any religion that has any power, popularity, or credibility outside of our (very, very) small community. That will not be the thrust of my argument, however. I have not nor will I ever publicly discuss the specifics of my faith (in private, sure, but not on goddamn livejournal), so using it as a counter argument would be a little silly. Blanket statements about made 'all religion' generally are, by nature, false. I will attempt to illuminate my opposition through example.

2) There is nothing specific about organized religion that I do not support. I may not be part of the club, but hey, there are too many people of an intellect that far eclipses mine who belong to organized religions for me to make a statement about the intellectual validity of their personal faith.

An interesting thought I once had concerning the distinction between 'personal religions' and 'organized religion'...

If my faith were to become popular, gain millions of followers worldwide, establish an infrastructure in order to serve the community in a more efficient fashion, and eventually have enough sway that major political figures considered us an established voting block, would I stop believing in what I believe in now?

I hope I wouldn't.

...and boy howdy, can organized religion perform some seriously good works for people who really need it. Sure, I don't believe in their theology, but those churchy folk can sure feed a whole lotta hungry people when they put their minds to it.

[kyhwana.livejournal.com]

Uh huh. ;)

[kyhwana.livejournal.com]

First of all, if you want a little background on me, go and find the religious posts on my LJ.
Now that that's out of the way.

(some) People use religion as a crutch to fix things about themselves they don't like. (Or rather that other people tell them is bad) Maybe they really do want to (better themselves in some way) but are too weak willed to do it themselves (this is bad) so they need some fantasy land to help them out. Organised religion can do this.
Overall, this bit is usually a "good" thing, despite the bullshit..

We have science for a reason and no, god didn't cure your cancer or save your cousin or whatever.
However there IS scientific proof that prayer (extreme forms) can lead to a neurological state that causes people to "meet god" in their words, or become one with everything. (ie meditation)
It can have a calming effect on the body (and possibly immune system, etc) but only if you're really into it. If you can wire yourself so you actually believe it, you can get to that state.
Now, I just have to get there (this will probably take a while, and I havn't really started. I think i'll try the buddhist type of meditation) and "prove" to myself that you and I can experience the same kind of nirvana, joy or estatic kind of state without the religion.
That'll be a kind of ultimate justification (of atheism) for me.

As for the religion is stupid/unjustifable/god is * bit:

This is the 21st century. Sadly we don't have flying cars and we STILL have religion. Religion was "invented" by primitive man who didn't understand how the world worked. I find it amusing (and frustrating) that people still cling to the same kind of thing in this "day and age". (Not that america is particularly enlightened of course. Socially the US is really a shithole)
The problem with religion is that it gives people an easy way out and most people don't want to try very hard to find the truth, or even KNOW that they're not going to find it!
Why is it so hard for people to accept that there are just somethings we just don't know?

As for the "god gives me comfort" I blame society (and thus religion, again!) for that. Society can't give you that kind of comfort because there is religion for that! They're intertwined and I see no way that they will become unintwined because there are too many stupid people.

The _real_ reason I dislike religion is that people use it as an excuse to do things I don't like. (Banning abortion, invading foriegn countries to kill people, saying i'm going to hell and that I should basically have no rights as a person, that people can't do what they want as long as they don't hurt people, etcetc)

But generally I agree with most of your statements, even though I know my roommates ilthuain and mharpold8 don't. (I tried to justify why I agree with you in the previous paragraphs)

[kyhwana.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately all those other people who follow the same religion as you (apparently) arn't so quiet. ;)

[barberio.livejournal.com]

I'd like to remind you that there are religious people who have never hurt you, and never want to. Please don't lump us in with the morons who don't think about things. Some of us have thought over their religion quite a bit.

I think you've made a fundamental mistake. Taking the word of men as the word of god, and thus desciding that all word of god is invalid. Any religion that places it's scripture above the natural way of the world is automaticaly invalidated. (It's even considered a formal herasy in the Catholic church. I just wish they'd apply it more.)

A few invalidations of your opinions, via my own personal religious belifes. (And also, some maths)

First, I don't fully know what god is. Anyone who says they do know is lying.
Second, the Universe is not here for us. It's just here. We're suposed to cope with it in the best way we can. (See above re 'Nature invalidates Scripture')
Third, Infinate things can contain other Infinate things. (Thats the maths)

Now I can understand your opinion that people who use religion as a crutch to do bad things is abhorent...
But why take umbridge with people who use religion as a crutch to do *good* things? Not all people are perfect. They do need guidence sometimes.

Why should you care if someone does good things because they are inherently good, or because they are religious, or because they took their pills today?

[yetanotherbob.livejournal.com]

Woo. That's a heck of a way to start a debate, but I like it. I'm hoping there's an option open that wasn't listed above. I still haven't finished forming my beliefs, but would be interested in an intelligent back-and-forth banter about this.

I've got a lot of stupid beliefs. Heck, I still wish on lucky pennies I find on the ground. The results have been not exactly lucky, and it's a useless gesture, but I still do it because it's harmless fun.

But here's a twist that I'm curious as to your thoughts on: What about religions/beliefs that do not have a god in them? Like Taoism?

[circuit-four.livejournal.com]

Okay, gotta start this somewhere:

Have you ever read Cat's Cradle? Just as a hypothetical case, what did you think of Bokononism? What about other religions that acknowledge from the start that they're just memetic hacks?

(frozen) (no subject)

[shatterstripes.livejournal.com]

Every time someone says "it's a miracle! God saved me!" I have the same response. And everyone someone says they'll pray for me I cringe and take a moment to say "um, thanks, I guess." I so do not have the God Gene.

(best example of 'God saved me!' in my recent life: Katrina. So many people thanking God for getting out alive. Um, hello? If God gave a shit about everyone in the storm's path, maybe we would've seen a giant divine finger come down from the sky and stir the storm backwards, so it died down?)

Welcome to my world.

[doodlesthegreat.livejournal.com]

Your phrasing is more angry than I might put it, but you do sum up my own worldview. I don't know if others use the term, but I like to call this viewpoint Militant Agnostic:

I don't know the answer and neither do you.

[xydexx.livejournal.com]

Every time someone says "it's a miracle! God saved me!" I have the same response.

It's curious how we never hear from the folks God didn't save.

I am reminded of the schmaltzy Drama In Real Life stories I would read in Reader's Digest (back in the day when I did crazy things like that) where someone would get trapped under a giant bronze turnip statue or something and inevitably in their darkest hour they'd think Please, God, let someone find me... and they'd be rescued. That's all well and good, but what about the folks who pray to God and were still trapped under a giant bronze turnip until they die because nobody found them? We never hear about that, or if we do it's with the excuse that "it was their time" and God needed them in Heaven or something.

(Dr. Cat-style disclaimer: This shouldn't be interpreted as me being down on religion. I'm not. I think religion serves a useful purpose in that it gives people structure to their lives and something to believe in. It's an operating system. If believing in God and the afterlife and praying helps folks get through the day, that's great, more power to them. That being said, I think—and I apologize in advance if some folks will probably find this offensive—someone could pray to the Invisible Pink Unicorn and get pretty much the same results.)

[xydexx.livejournal.com]

This was supposed to be a response to shatterstripes, above, but it got posted here instead. Obviously, God is punishing me. -:)

[kensan-oni.livejournal.com]

First off, deep breath... I don't know what set this off, but being angry at everyone who believes that there is some guiding force in this universe isn't going to solve anything, and just make you a bitter lady. YOu know, the kind with their lips sucked in, and their boobs ready to implode, and wrinkling at the speed of light? Relax.

Second, the majority of people in a religion never read or search for meaning in their whole entire lives. They don't understand that the miricle is not that they lived through a tumor, but that they are living in a world where the greatest thing to fear is each other. Some people might also consider this hellish. In eithercase, there is more of a miricle in surviving a car crash then there is being saved from disease. There are even religions that encourage you to embrace disease, as that it part of the universal plan... None the less, to people who have no clue as to what really matters in this world, pity them. Religion is still used for a lor of evil as well as some good. ... it's just that no one tells about the good anymore.

I was discussing with a freind of mine yesterday that is very cynical. He does not belive that there is any good in this world, and everyone is going to die in a ball of flame, and he just wants to be there to say "I told you so." ... he's not an unhappy person, just feels a little forsaken. He is the type of person who you could show a series of maps of the destruction of the ozone layer, and he would want more proof. He, in his own way, has a very weird faith. The first example of good I could think of happens right here in this motel complex. We have a missionary group that swings by once a week. They have a mobile trailer, and a few terminals where they are teaching people how to use the current version of office. They ask for nothing for this service, they don't even preach to you. They just offer to teach you a skill that will help you get a better job, so that you have some hope to get out of this place and to a better one.

... Which he promptly put down as a plot for the greed of Bill Gates.

It blows away my mind the level of good people are willing to dismiss because they do not belive that it could happen. People go out of their way to look for the bad, because they do not belive that they ever have anything good happen to them. I can't express how sad it makes me that people reject things that are good because they are too focused on the bad.

... and enough of the last rant...

3) And this is just a personal nitpick that can be ignored. If we go by Genisis, we see that God did not give man the universe. Heck, he didn't even give him a Planet... he gave us a garden. A tiny one, that held all we could ever need, if we just let ourselves live in ignorance of ourselves. No where EVER does it tell us we are masters of the universe. We aren't even masters of this world. It is arrogance and human stupidity that lets us pretend we are, cause we have not been blue bolted in such a long time. It's clear thinkers like you, who don't take stock in what other people say, and take a look around at what is going on, that help the world survive.

And that is mostly what I have to say about that...

[kensan-oni.livejournal.com]

Can I pray to Gusty instead? I didn't like the pink unicorn...

(frozen) (no subject)

[kensan-oni.livejournal.com]

Shouldn't that have been "Thank God I have a TV and Electricity so that someone told me a storm was comming, and I could get out of the way and be someplace where it wasn't so floodlike?"

I mean, really... thank your weatherman, not god, on this one. :'D

GUSTY WINDS MAY EXIST

[xydexx.livejournal.com]

Whatever works for you. :)

[doodlesthegreat.livejournal.com]

It's an operating system.

I'd never thought about that before, but it's true. Unfortunately, the OS religion most resembles is Windows ME...