pasithea: glowing girl (Default)
pasithea ([personal profile] pasithea) wrote2006-03-22 11:00 pm

Your religion is stupid.

As the title implies, this is directed at everyone, not just 'those christians' or something. Maybe I'll lose some friends over it but I need to say it.

Your religion is stupid. They're all stupid. They're a waste of time and they benefit the world NOTHING.


Blahblahblah god saved me from drinking/got me through some rough times/etc.
I know you're going to say it, I've heard it before. It's BULLSHIT. God didn't get you through jack. Maybe having a fantasy got you through it but it was your own inner strength that got you through it.

There aren't any fucking miracles. There's the skill of surgeons, the many years of study and education of people who make the world better, and there's random chance. It wasn't God that removed a tumor. It was a doctor. It was a nurse, an anesthesiologist, hundreds of years of study, etc. It's not a 'miracle we thank god for every day' that you survived. If you want to believe in God, who the fuck put the tumor there, huh? Was that just bad luck and then God came along and saved you? Riiiight.

Pissed off yet? Why? I guess there's some embarassment if you're the last kid of the block to realize there's no Santa Claus but that's life, and you grow up an learn that the spirit of giving is more important that your childish greed.

And that gets me to my proof that religion is stupid.

The universe is a HUGE place. We're tiny little specs on a single planet. Our planet is a tiny spec in our solar system. Our Sun is in a galaxy which contains more stars than all the people on Earth, and even our galaxy is just a spec in the universe and that's just what we can see with our limited senses. There could be millions of dimensions. We are so tiny that you can't even begin to understand it. It's utterly beyond us.

That puts us in quite a quandry for talk of God. You have two options if you REALLY want to believe in God. God is infinite and holds the entire universe or God is finite and limited.

If God is infinite, religion is supremely arrogant. To think for even a second that God made use masters of the universe, or cares in the slightest that we obey some absurdist set of rules is completely juvenille. It's akin to a 2-year-old who thinks they are the center of mommy's universe. The religious are but toddlers throwing a tantrum and banging some pots together. Furthermore: All the religious leaders say you must worship God in THEIR way. Books capture only a piece of a moment. They tell you only what the author sees. Two people experience a situation differently. If God is this vast and uncomprehendible, ANY attempt to describe it are utterly pointless. No book, no story, no set of rules will ever possibly be adequate. I know a hundred million times more about God than any religious person. There's no way you can disprove that. Just cling childishly to nonsensical texts, stamp your feet and say you MUST be right because someone wrote a book on it. It's stupid.

If God is finite, you're even more stupid. Now you've got the possibility for multiple Gods. Which one is the right one? There's no way to chose. Taking the religion your parents took is a damn poor ignorant way to chose. If you put any thought into it, you're just going to chose the one that's convenient. The one that you like the best. Determining your vision of the ruler of the world by a popularity contest based on the opinions of others. SHEER GENIUS. And what of the choices? Fucking rotten lot there. All of them have their bad parts. The best you could do is maybe buddism but that's more like atheism with some religious decorations on the outside. Most of the other Gods are petty and selfish, chilidish. Why would you WANT to worship a God that says you must suffer? If you're gay or eat pork or drink wine or whatever it is against your religion and God is going to punish you for all eternity because you weren't an obedient child, why would you WANT to worship that God? That's not love or caring. That's abuse and domination. If a stranger corner you in an alley and said, 'GET ON YOUR KNEES AND SUCK MY COCK OR I'LL BREAK YOUR KNEES', you probably wouldn't be talking about how great he was in the morning. You'd feel violated, hateful, resentful, vengeful. The finite God that makes demands is nothing but a petty thug. Who needs him? And if your God doesn't care what you do, what's the point in worshipping them?

I know you want to 'justify' your beliefs. You want to say 'God gives me comfort' or 'cultural heritage' or something else like that. It's all a bunch of excuses so you don't have to think about it. If you're angry, or trying to come up with a justification for your religion. Rather than bothering me with it and wasting my time debating your childish rage. Why don't you just think about why you're angry? I mean sure, it's because of what I said, but what specifically about it makes you angry. If you think you're smarter than me, I'd love to hear you prove to me beyond any shadow of doubt that YOUR religion is THE right one and that all of those other religions are wrong. Your proof must be rational enough that anyone will accept it. Even the most devout baptist, muslim, or hindu. And don't bother with the 'I just have a special feeling.' thing. That's not only unprovable, it's a lie. Maybe one that you believe but a lie none-the less. If you need proof, you need only look at the divorce rates. How many people have said, 'forever' and lost that conviction in less than a year.

When you work through your anger or contempt or whatever, please consider this: YOU have a lot of power within you. You can work to MAKE the world a better place. YOU have your own inner strength. All those bad times you got through was because YOU are strong. God, like Santa Claus. Nothing more than a lie to pacify children. You're a better person since you came to understand Santa was an idea instead of a person. You can grow even more if you let go of God. Learn to believe in yourself and the strength and beauty of all the other people around you. If you think the stories about God made you a better person. Fine, keep that. Use it. Just use it wisely. You can understand even more from the story once you accept that it's only fiction.

If you want to repost this, you may.
If you agree with me but you're afraid to take the heat for it, go ahead and reference this.
If you want to unfriend me. That's fine. I'm really that sick of religion and there are plenty of other people out there, and you can probably find someone else who doesn't challenge you as much.
If you want to scream and throw a tantrum, I'll ban you from my journal.
If you want to quietly suck it in an pretend I didn't say it, that's your choice. I'm sad you don't want to think about it.
If you think you can prove your religion is the right one and that your God is real beyond any shadow of a doubt, I'd love to hear it. Just make sure you've got a good tangible argument.
If you think you're clever and you're going to point out that I'm one of those nasty liberals who talks about freedom of thought but doesn't REALLY mean it. Save it. First off, that's a personal attack and has NOTHING to do with my arguments. Second: I would WELCOME an intelligent counter. Saying something ignorant like that is just a feeble attempt to change the topic. Lastly, it's not even a valid argument. This is my journal. I can ban anyone I want. I am NOT trying to prevent you from making a fool of yourself in public. I just don't feel like wasting my time on your ignorance.

Finally, if you're one of those ignorant pieces of produce who says, 'well, I guess we'll find out who's right in the end.' with the implication that God is gonna punish me for my attitude, not only are you a stupid fuck who hasn't listened at all but you're also a coward. I'd RATHER die on my feet in opposition to an abusive twisted little fuck than spend eternity stroking his ego. Don't say you'll pray for me anyhow or whatever. That's just disrespectful, and I'd just spit in your God's face.

That's it for now. I may add some more to this later.

[identity profile] neogeen.livejournal.com 2006-03-23 07:07 am (UTC)(link)
...Then there are those of us that never once mention religion, but are still highly religious.

I hope you have a good one.

[identity profile] kyhwana.livejournal.com 2006-03-23 09:38 am (UTC)(link)
Unfortunately all those other people who follow the same religion as you (apparently) arn't so quiet. ;)

(no subject)

[identity profile] ilthuain.livejournal.com - 2006-03-23 19:02 (UTC) - Expand

[identity profile] kinkyturtle.livejournal.com 2006-03-23 07:20 am (UTC)(link)
I'm not afraid to say I agree with you!

[identity profile] revar.livejournal.com 2006-03-23 07:37 am (UTC)(link)
Woo! I've thought some of these things myself, but daaaaaaaaamn!

*Gets out a silver fireproof suit, a long metal fork, and some marshmellows. Sits back to watch the fireworks.*

[identity profile] revar.livejournal.com 2006-03-23 10:25 pm (UTC)(link)
Actually, though I self identify as Athiest, there is a concept of god I could believe in.

God may yet turn out to be the equivalent of a computer programmer/operator in a higher level of existence, who runs the universe simulation we live in. :)

If so, I bet he has great tools to identify the highest concentrations of complexity and entropy, and periodically pokes around in the simulator, looking at what's evolved up. For kicks, I bet he sometimes messes with us. But with such a large data set to look over, we probably only get his notice once in a long while, until he gets bored with us.

We'd be kind of neopets for God. But that's okay. Someday, if we don't eradicate ourselves, we may find ways to hack the system, then WE can become our own gods. Unless, of course, we crash the system, and cause it to get reloaded from the latest saved dataset. But then, we'd never know, would we? :)

"Damnit! Division by zero error in Sol-3 thread? Crap! I'm tired of fixing all the bugs they keep finding. That's it, one Smiting coming right up. Lessee how they like it if I flip a few hundred tons of their planetary core to antimatter. Maybe the Centaurans'll take this as a warning before they start futzing around with the Higgs field dataset."

Yeah, okay, so I don't really believe this. But then again, I totally would not be surprised if it turned out to be true. :)

[identity profile] ilthuain.livejournal.com 2006-03-23 08:07 am (UTC)(link)
Jeez, this is kinda silly.

On the other hand, I am glad that you personally have it all figured out. Good on you! (That was kinda a snark, but hey...)

That said, I can understand some issue with people who use religion as a tool, but c'mon, do you really mean all this stuff? If you want to discuss this in a serious way, I'd be happy to take this... whatever it is... point by point and attempt to defend religion as a whole. I know I hardly know you, but you were nice to my husband and I do know a thing or two about theology, so it might be a good time.

Or you can ban me. Either way.

Kevin Smith is God ;-)

[identity profile] pathia.livejournal.com 2006-03-23 08:48 am (UTC)(link)
I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant.

I think her main angst is against organized religion, which I don't believe you're all that supportive of, though we haven't had a religion discussion really.

[identity profile] ataramos.livejournal.com 2006-03-23 08:29 am (UTC)(link)
The only thing I could think of through this was 'god's work isn't done by god, it's done by people' -- ani difranco 'up up up up up up'

[identity profile] kyhwana.livejournal.com 2006-03-23 08:58 am (UTC)(link)
Of course, said people "think" they're doing the work of god.
Personally I lay on the "these people are crazy" side of the spectrum, due to the fact that you can't prove it one way or the other, so why exactly are these people doing the supposed work of god?

(no subject)

[identity profile] ataramos.livejournal.com - 2006-03-23 09:09 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] kyhwana.livejournal.com - 2006-03-23 09:15 (UTC) - Expand

[identity profile] turbinerocks.livejournal.com 2006-03-23 09:04 am (UTC)(link)
This guy really likes his van. And Jesus. (http://www.themiraclesofjesusministry.org/jesusvangiver.htm)

[identity profile] kyhwana.livejournal.com 2006-03-23 09:36 am (UTC)(link)
First of all, if you want a little background on me, go and find the religious posts on my LJ.
Now that that's out of the way.

(some) People use religion as a crutch to fix things about themselves they don't like. (Or rather that other people tell them is bad) Maybe they really do want to (better themselves in some way) but are too weak willed to do it themselves (this is bad) so they need some fantasy land to help them out. Organised religion can do this.
Overall, this bit is usually a "good" thing, despite the bullshit..

We have science for a reason and no, god didn't cure your cancer or save your cousin or whatever.
However there IS scientific proof that prayer (extreme forms) can lead to a neurological state that causes people to "meet god" in their words, or become one with everything. (ie meditation)
It can have a calming effect on the body (and possibly immune system, etc) but only if you're really into it. If you can wire yourself so you actually believe it, you can get to that state.
Now, I just have to get there (this will probably take a while, and I havn't really started. I think i'll try the buddhist type of meditation) and "prove" to myself that you and I can experience the same kind of nirvana, joy or estatic kind of state without the religion.
That'll be a kind of ultimate justification (of atheism) for me.

As for the religion is stupid/unjustifable/god is * bit:

This is the 21st century. Sadly we don't have flying cars and we STILL have religion. Religion was "invented" by primitive man who didn't understand how the world worked. I find it amusing (and frustrating) that people still cling to the same kind of thing in this "day and age". (Not that america is particularly enlightened of course. Socially the US is really a shithole)
The problem with religion is that it gives people an easy way out and most people don't want to try very hard to find the truth, or even KNOW that they're not going to find it!
Why is it so hard for people to accept that there are just somethings we just don't know?

As for the "god gives me comfort" I blame society (and thus religion, again!) for that. Society can't give you that kind of comfort because there is religion for that! They're intertwined and I see no way that they will become unintwined because there are too many stupid people.

The _real_ reason I dislike religion is that people use it as an excuse to do things I don't like. (Banning abortion, invading foriegn countries to kill people, saying i'm going to hell and that I should basically have no rights as a person, that people can't do what they want as long as they don't hurt people, etcetc)

But generally I agree with most of your statements, even though I know my roommates [livejournal.com profile] ilthuain and [livejournal.com profile] mharpold8 don't. (I tried to justify why I agree with you in the previous paragraphs)

[identity profile] turbinerocks.livejournal.com 2006-03-23 11:40 pm (UTC)(link)
BOW DOWN BEFORE JESUS THE VAN GIVER

(no subject)

[identity profile] ilthuain.livejournal.com - 2006-03-23 23:46 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] kyhwana.livejournal.com - 2006-03-24 00:08 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] ilthuain.livejournal.com - 2006-03-24 00:29 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] kyhwana.livejournal.com - 2006-03-24 00:55 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] ilthuain.livejournal.com - 2006-03-24 01:06 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] dv-girl.livejournal.com - 2006-03-24 07:35 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] kyhwana.livejournal.com - 2006-03-24 12:45 (UTC) - Expand

[identity profile] barberio.livejournal.com 2006-03-23 10:08 am (UTC)(link)
I'd like to remind you that there are religious people who have never hurt you, and never want to. Please don't lump us in with the morons who don't think about things. Some of us have thought over their religion quite a bit.

I think you've made a fundamental mistake. Taking the word of men as the word of god, and thus desciding that all word of god is invalid. Any religion that places it's scripture above the natural way of the world is automaticaly invalidated. (It's even considered a formal herasy in the Catholic church. I just wish they'd apply it more.)

A few invalidations of your opinions, via my own personal religious belifes. (And also, some maths)

First, I don't fully know what god is. Anyone who says they do know is lying.
Second, the Universe is not here for us. It's just here. We're suposed to cope with it in the best way we can. (See above re 'Nature invalidates Scripture')
Third, Infinate things can contain other Infinate things. (Thats the maths)

Now I can understand your opinion that people who use religion as a crutch to do bad things is abhorent...
But why take umbridge with people who use religion as a crutch to do *good* things? Not all people are perfect. They do need guidence sometimes.

Why should you care if someone does good things because they are inherently good, or because they are religious, or because they took their pills today?

[identity profile] dv-girl.livejournal.com 2006-03-24 07:42 am (UTC)(link)
Everyone believes they're not one of 'those people'. That's why I attacked my friends.

If you give money at church, where do you think it goes ultimately? You are part of the problem, they are part of the problem, and it's all foolish. Allt hat time and energy and power and creativity in the world wasted on something either doesn't exist, doesn't care, or is as small and petty as any dictator. I'm tired of wasting time on it.

Show me where God lives and I'll be the first in line to punch him in the face.

(no subject)

[identity profile] kyhwana.livejournal.com - 2006-03-24 12:53 (UTC) - Expand

[identity profile] yetanotherbob.livejournal.com 2006-03-23 11:34 am (UTC)(link)
Woo. That's a heck of a way to start a debate, but I like it. I'm hoping there's an option open that wasn't listed above. I still haven't finished forming my beliefs, but would be interested in an intelligent back-and-forth banter about this.

I've got a lot of stupid beliefs. Heck, I still wish on lucky pennies I find on the ground. The results have been not exactly lucky, and it's a useless gesture, but I still do it because it's harmless fun.

But here's a twist that I'm curious as to your thoughts on: What about religions/beliefs that do not have a god in them? Like Taoism?

[identity profile] dv-girl.livejournal.com 2006-03-24 07:46 am (UTC)(link)
I don't know enough about Taoism to make a competent statement.
Generally I prefer philosophies to religions. 'Be good or flying Sky Daddy will punish you' doesn't work for me. Suggestions, guidelines, stuff you have to think about is good. Hard fast and arbitrary rules. Bad.

[identity profile] circuit-four.livejournal.com 2006-03-23 01:11 pm (UTC)(link)
Okay, gotta start this somewhere:

Have you ever read Cat's Cradle? Just as a hypothetical case, what did you think of Bokononism? What about other religions that acknowledge from the start that they're just memetic hacks?

[identity profile] kyhwana.livejournal.com 2006-03-23 08:50 pm (UTC)(link)
How about the church of the FSM or Discordianism? ;)

(no subject)

[identity profile] kyhwana.livejournal.com - 2006-03-23 22:06 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] kyhwana.livejournal.com - 2006-03-24 12:54 (UTC) - Expand
ext_646: (Default)

(frozen comment)

[identity profile] shatterstripes.livejournal.com 2006-03-23 01:48 pm (UTC)(link)
Every time someone says "it's a miracle! God saved me!" I have the same response. And everyone someone says they'll pray for me I cringe and take a moment to say "um, thanks, I guess." I so do not have the God Gene.

(best example of 'God saved me!' in my recent life: Katrina. So many people thanking God for getting out alive. Um, hello? If God gave a shit about everyone in the storm's path, maybe we would've seen a giant divine finger come down from the sky and stir the storm backwards, so it died down?)

(frozen comment)

[identity profile] kensan-oni.livejournal.com 2006-03-23 03:32 pm (UTC)(link)
Shouldn't that have been "Thank God I have a TV and Electricity so that someone told me a storm was comming, and I could get out of the way and be someplace where it wasn't so floodlike?"

I mean, really... thank your weatherman, not god, on this one. :'D

(frozen comment) (no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2006-03-23 16:43 (UTC) - Expand

(frozen comment) (no subject)

[identity profile] kensan-oni.livejournal.com - 2006-03-23 16:54 (UTC) - Expand

(frozen comment) (no subject)

[personal profile] zeeth_kyrah - 2006-03-23 19:11 (UTC) - Expand

(frozen comment) (no subject)

[identity profile] kensan-oni.livejournal.com - 2006-03-24 14:45 (UTC) - Expand

(frozen comment) Thread frozen, Kensan-gone.

[identity profile] dv-girl.livejournal.com - 2006-03-24 17:38 (UTC) - Expand

Welcome to my world.

[identity profile] doodlesthegreat.livejournal.com 2006-03-23 02:57 pm (UTC)(link)
Your phrasing is more angry than I might put it, but you do sum up my own worldview. I don't know if others use the term, but I like to call this viewpoint Militant Agnostic:

I don't know the answer and neither do you.

Re: Welcome to my world.

[identity profile] dv-girl.livejournal.com 2006-03-24 07:50 am (UTC)(link)
Actually, I'm not debating the existance of God at all. I honestly don't CARE if God exists or not. I'm just pointing out that religious faith is stupid.

[identity profile] xydexx.livejournal.com 2006-03-23 03:09 pm (UTC)(link)
Every time someone says "it's a miracle! God saved me!" I have the same response.
It's curious how we never hear from the folks God didn't save.

I am reminded of the schmaltzy Drama In Real Life stories I would read in Reader's Digest (back in the day when I did crazy things like that) where someone would get trapped under a giant bronze turnip statue or something and inevitably in their darkest hour they'd think Please, God, let someone find me... and they'd be rescued. That's all well and good, but what about the folks who pray to God and were still trapped under a giant bronze turnip until they die because nobody found them? We never hear about that, or if we do it's with the excuse that "it was their time" and God needed them in Heaven or something.

(Dr. Cat-style disclaimer: This shouldn't be interpreted as me being down on religion. I'm not. I think religion serves a useful purpose in that it gives people structure to their lives and something to believe in. It's an operating system. If believing in God and the afterlife and praying helps folks get through the day, that's great, more power to them. That being said, I think—and I apologize in advance if some folks will probably find this offensive—someone could pray to the Invisible Pink Unicorn and get pretty much the same results.)

[identity profile] xydexx.livejournal.com 2006-03-23 03:10 pm (UTC)(link)
This was supposed to be a response to [livejournal.com profile] shatterstripes, above, but it got posted here instead. Obviously, God is punishing me. -:)

(no subject)

[identity profile] kyhwana.livejournal.com - 2006-03-23 20:52 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] kensan-oni.livejournal.com - 2006-03-23 15:30 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] xydexx.livejournal.com - 2006-03-23 20:41 (UTC) - Expand

[identity profile] kensan-oni.livejournal.com 2006-03-23 03:28 pm (UTC)(link)
First off, deep breath... I don't know what set this off, but being angry at everyone who believes that there is some guiding force in this universe isn't going to solve anything, and just make you a bitter lady. YOu know, the kind with their lips sucked in, and their boobs ready to implode, and wrinkling at the speed of light? Relax.

Second, the majority of people in a religion never read or search for meaning in their whole entire lives. They don't understand that the miricle is not that they lived through a tumor, but that they are living in a world where the greatest thing to fear is each other. Some people might also consider this hellish. In eithercase, there is more of a miricle in surviving a car crash then there is being saved from disease. There are even religions that encourage you to embrace disease, as that it part of the universal plan... None the less, to people who have no clue as to what really matters in this world, pity them. Religion is still used for a lor of evil as well as some good. ... it's just that no one tells about the good anymore.

I was discussing with a freind of mine yesterday that is very cynical. He does not belive that there is any good in this world, and everyone is going to die in a ball of flame, and he just wants to be there to say "I told you so." ... he's not an unhappy person, just feels a little forsaken. He is the type of person who you could show a series of maps of the destruction of the ozone layer, and he would want more proof. He, in his own way, has a very weird faith. The first example of good I could think of happens right here in this motel complex. We have a missionary group that swings by once a week. They have a mobile trailer, and a few terminals where they are teaching people how to use the current version of office. They ask for nothing for this service, they don't even preach to you. They just offer to teach you a skill that will help you get a better job, so that you have some hope to get out of this place and to a better one.

... Which he promptly put down as a plot for the greed of Bill Gates.

It blows away my mind the level of good people are willing to dismiss because they do not belive that it could happen. People go out of their way to look for the bad, because they do not belive that they ever have anything good happen to them. I can't express how sad it makes me that people reject things that are good because they are too focused on the bad.

... and enough of the last rant...

3) And this is just a personal nitpick that can be ignored. If we go by Genisis, we see that God did not give man the universe. Heck, he didn't even give him a Planet... he gave us a garden. A tiny one, that held all we could ever need, if we just let ourselves live in ignorance of ourselves. No where EVER does it tell us we are masters of the universe. We aren't even masters of this world. It is arrogance and human stupidity that lets us pretend we are, cause we have not been blue bolted in such a long time. It's clear thinkers like you, who don't take stock in what other people say, and take a look around at what is going on, that help the world survive.

And that is mostly what I have to say about that...

[identity profile] dv-girl.livejournal.com 2006-03-24 08:04 am (UTC)(link)
First paragraph is stupid. If anything might make me bitter, it's listening to the same stupid people say the same stupid things over and over again and always holding my tongue, never daring speak because it might break some china. Suggesting I 'grin and bare it' certainly isn't going to make me less annoyed.

Second paragraph is gibberish.

Third paragraph is pointless. They aren't doing it for 'free'. They're doing it to buy their way into Heaven and so what if religious groups occassionally do good deeds. Drug lords often help the people of their local village and put their kids through college so that they can grow up to be smart enforcers. The mafia does the same thing. One need not be a good person to do a 'good deed'. You can find 'good' in any group of intimidators if you care to look for it. Even spousal abusers tend to be very nice to their victim for a while.

The King James bible, which is often cited by aggressively anti-vegetarian christians says some drivel like, 'And he created man to rule over the beasts'. You can argue that it could be interpretedted 'take care of the beasts' or 'stewarts of the world' but it doesn't matter. It's a power fantasy any way you look at it and the way the majority of the religious interpret it with themselves a close second beneath their God.

Please take your drunken kung fu elsewhere.

(no subject)

[identity profile] kyhwana.livejournal.com - 2006-03-24 12:55 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] kensan-oni.livejournal.com - 2006-03-24 14:47 (UTC) - Expand

[identity profile] hakeber.livejournal.com 2006-03-23 03:59 pm (UTC)(link)
Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people.
Karl Marx, Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right
German economist & Communist political philosopher (1818 - 1883)

But I like the way you said it, too.

[identity profile] circuit-four.livejournal.com 2006-03-24 02:03 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, but... was replacing religion with labor-obsessed reductionist rationalism really any better for the human race? I can't help feeling both sides (of the grand historic debate, not on this LJ post) here are kinda missing the point. I'd have to dig thru old course notes to back this up, but didn't later neo-Marxists (I'm thinking of Marcuse and Roszak here) come down on good ol' Karl for losing sight of simple humanistic cultural needs, in favor of dour materialistic ones?

I mean, I don't want to pick a side here. I love Albert Einstein and Lao Tze equally. I despise Torquemada and Lenin equally. Pound for pound, I can't really say whether science or religion has produced more pretty things - and I can't claim to really give a toss about much of anything else. But just remember... opiates have the power to relieve suffering, and the very belief that that's a bad thing is, itself, an article of faith.

[identity profile] ilthuain.livejournal.com 2006-03-23 07:12 pm (UTC)(link)
This study obviously doesn't apply to Geek Culture. The Vatican should cut me a check for how often I defend the very idea of religion.

Also: I'll bet I can find more distrusted religious groups than atheists. Practitioners of voodoo come to mind. I'm guessing Druze and Caodaism don't get much play in the flyover states either, so they're probably not distrusted so much as totally unknown.

(no subject)

[identity profile] centauress.livejournal.com - 2006-03-23 21:51 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] ilthuain.livejournal.com - 2006-03-23 23:39 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] centauress.livejournal.com - 2006-03-24 07:12 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] ilthuain.livejournal.com - 2006-03-24 11:09 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] kyhwana.livejournal.com - 2006-03-24 12:58 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] ilthuain.livejournal.com - 2006-03-24 20:36 (UTC) - Expand

[identity profile] kakoukorakos.livejournal.com 2006-03-23 05:55 pm (UTC)(link)
Hehe, did someone have a bad experience with a lunatic?

I would say I agree on pretty much all of your points, but maybe not the entire gestalt you paint. There is one component of religion that is practical...even though the pushers of religion almost always neglect it. It's the underlying philosophy that tells people how to behave for a peaceful coexistence. All civilized religions have such instructions, but most followers are too ignorant of their own faith to know it, and the leaders exploiting religion for their own personal gain certainly aren't going to tell them, because fostering peace and harmony just isn't good for business, it's creating the illusion that the followers are more special than everyone else and entitled to be assholes to "infidels" and "unsaved", and otherwise sowing the seeds of discord and petty divisiveness.

Religion is just a repackaging of fundamental philosophy. It's the pill that looks like candy that tricks people who just can't stomach thinking things through for themselves into following basic principles that are presumably for the common good. It's just too easy for religious tyrants with bad intentions to slip lies and manipulations through in similar packaging, and the ignorant masses still gobble that crap right up too. It depresses me to know there are so many people who are violently opposed to thinking anything so important through for themselves and becoming personally accountable for their actions...they'd rather remain ignorant and give those burdens of accountability to the religious tyrants, who are more than happy to accept those burdens (and summarily discard them, for they have no morals or cares) in exchange for the unquestioning allegeiance of their minions, who become willing to commit atrocities in exchange for the illusion of rewards in an afterlife which nobody has actually returned from to offer a review of. Talk about a scam...

[identity profile] dv-girl.livejournal.com 2006-03-24 08:11 am (UTC)(link)
That's really got nothing to do with believing steadfastly in religion. Biblical stories, by in large, were based of older summerian and asyrian stories. There's no reason to call one 'truth' and the other 'mythology'. They're both just stories. It's fine to learn from stories. Many have shaped my life, but I don't go around worshipping Herby the Love Bug or preaching the gospel of Charles Dickens.

(no subject)

[identity profile] kyhwana.livejournal.com - 2006-03-24 12:59 (UTC) - Expand

(frozen comment) That's incorrect

[identity profile] jesusliveswithn.livejournal.com - 2006-03-24 16:10 (UTC) - Expand

[identity profile] mercia.livejournal.com 2006-03-23 06:03 pm (UTC)(link)
...

Wow, did you just cut and paste every bitter atheist rant on the web you could find, or what?

Seriously, every comment in there is a stereotypical "Wah! I hate god and everyone who doesn't is stupid! You need to stop believing in him/them/it/blahblahblah!" ranty bullshit.

So, shut up and stop evangelizing to me, because that's exactly what you're trying to do. Take your little tracts, go sit in the corner with the rest of your bitter little clique, and stay there like I wish the rest of the people who want to force me to conform to their opinions would.

[identity profile] turbinerocks.livejournal.com 2006-03-23 11:54 pm (UTC)(link)
Dude, you have the best userinfo I have ever read. :D

(no subject)

[identity profile] dv-girl.livejournal.com - 2006-03-24 08:34 (UTC) - Expand

[identity profile] breisleach.livejournal.com 2006-03-23 06:23 pm (UTC)(link)
While I agree with some of you points, I disagree with a lot of others, but overall...

How the heck _is_ this different from religion? To me, this came across as, more or less, demanding that other people share your views, and in my view of things, that's wrong. I don't tell other people what is and isn't their right to do with their body. I don't tell other people what is and isn't their gender. I don't tell other people what their morals are or are not.

I don't have a right to tell other people what they believe. I don't think anyone does. And that's why I'm not a member of any major religion. But I also don't believe that the attitude that because religion isn't right for me means it isn't right for everyone is any better than believing, for example, that if homosexuality isn't right for me, it isn't right for everyone, and anyone who disagrees is an idiot.

I'm hoping this doesn't come across as a personal attack, as it's not meant to be. I suspect you're going to claim it is, and that I'm ignorant, but well, that's still my choice - and if you don't respect that I have the right to make my own choices, than it shouldn't matter to me what you think.

[identity profile] dv-girl.livejournal.com 2006-03-24 08:32 am (UTC)(link)
*sigh* I forgot to post a rule for the two most tedious questions: 'How is this different from religion?' and the old gendersnipe ploy. That's my own fault, I suppose.

How it's different from religion is simple. I didn't demand you believe anything. I presented simple, logical, understandable and (at least so far) irrefutable concepts. There's no threat implicit in my presentation. A slightly more sophisticated version of this feeble ploy is the oen where you say 'Math is a religion.' 2+3=5 only because we believe it does. It could really be 7 like in my crack-smoking universe or something. It's not wrong a child that 2+3 is 5. It's not wrong to each them that (2x+3y)*(x-6y)= 2x^2 - 9xy + 18y^2 or that sin(A)/a = sin(B)/b = sin(C)/c. You can cling to statements like 'Math is hard, let's go shopping' or you can learn it and grow and get more out of it.

The gendersnipe really just is cheap. I'll admit it's hard to defend if I was saying you shouldn't have spirituality, but I didn't say that. I said that religion was a farce. I could weakly cite biological evidence for gender issues. There's a lot more real tangible proof for it than for God, but it fails my conditions for proving God. No amount of scientific data would prove it to the pious and ignorant So fine. I'm a sexually mutliated freak, artifical, and joke. Here-in lies the HUGE difference between gender dysphoria and religion. I have no pretenses that what I made myself was a 'good' thing. It's cost me my family, probably a lot of inheritance, friends, pay scale at various jobs, made me sterile, made me a target for hatecrimes, and in all probability, shaved several years off my lifespan. There is no eternal glory for me. I used surgery the same way a smoker uses cigarettes, or an acoholic uses booze. The thing that makes me, the smoker, and the drinker better than the religious is that we know what we're doing is bad for us. We know that while it might get us through the day it impacts our overall quality of life. Religion is just another posion. There are better ways to die.

[identity profile] darklilith69.livejournal.com 2006-03-23 06:35 pm (UTC)(link)
My God! *grin* There is someone out there that feels the same myself and several of my closest friends.

Kudos to you!
zeeth_kyrah: A glowing white and blue anthropomorphic horse stands before a pink and blue sky. (Default)

[personal profile] zeeth_kyrah 2006-03-23 07:22 pm (UTC)(link)
You know where my journal is. You know what I post there. My background and personal history are open to you, as is my catalog of experience.

I love you as I love all my good friends. Let us not be at arms against each other.
zeeth_kyrah: A glowing white and blue anthropomorphic horse stands before a pink and blue sky. (Default)

[personal profile] zeeth_kyrah 2006-03-23 07:25 pm (UTC)(link)
By the way, http://www.shadowdancepodcast.com/
The latest is commentary titled "Magick in Religion/Creating Gods".
I haven't listened to this release myself, yet...

[identity profile] voidheart.livejournal.com 2006-03-23 09:03 pm (UTC)(link)
Ah, how we love you, the chicken and I ;)

After a long time dealing with everything from actual hatred religion pushers to the well-meaning but slightly befuddled "God loves everything" types, and all shades in between, for multiple years, from multiple religions and at multiple locales everywhere across the United States, studying logic, ethics, and theology for years in informal as well as scholastic settings, arguing theology with actual theologians, it has left me with only one conclusion:

Religion is a mental disorder.

Put simply, it is a mass hallucination generated by the need to feel safe, or in power, or whatever crack you need the God-spackle to cover that day. Like a drug, it is addictive in its simplicity and ease of use, and also like a drug, offers nothing substantial. I agree that were the person to put all that "pray-energy" into actually observing and resolving situations (and giving themselves the self-respect due from such an activity) then their lives would be almost immeasurably better. Everytime someone says "God this or that", if I can insert "Keebler Elves" in place of "God" then its a load of bunk. "God made water into wine and helped me heal my cancer". "The Keebler Elves made water into wine and helped heal my cancer".

And like any mental disorder, it needs treatment. Like any form of mass hallucination, it can spread in times of distress if not contained. And yes, it can lend itself to a form of "personal magnetism" just like that guy who coherently explains and believes that squirrels are living inside of him, sending him instructions via his spleen. But the problem is if the squirrel-spleen man is in control, he will force everyone to at least say they believe in the squirrels. And then their children will be indoctrinated, and one day everyone will believe they have squirrels in their spleens telling them what to do. And life stagnates, humanity stagnates, and we become worse for the belief, not better. Exchange spleen-squirrels and God, and you have the same thing.

We already have an example of what happens when everyone is forced to or actually believes in God. It was called the Dark Ages, the Inquisition, and is universally decried as the time when humanity took a big ol' gigantic step backwards in thought, technology, and morals. We have proof positive of the fruits of the religion tree in our own history, but people steadfastly refuse to see it. Religion is the opiate that tells you, even as everything you love is destroyed and all the people you respect are murdered, that everything's going to be okay. And its appropriate that it follows you even into the ground, where your body lays rotting, the mind dead, and the words of God merely company for a well-preserved corpse.

No one living, by definition, knows what happens after you die. Anyone that claims to is trying to use you, manipulate you, control you. Waste your time here talking to imaginary people at your own discretion.

[identity profile] kyhwana.livejournal.com 2006-03-24 12:52 pm (UTC)(link)
Instead of thinking of religion as a drug, think of it as more of a cult, where other people draw you into it. Where maybe they can see your indecisiveness, weak will or any other kind of weakness and can thus exploit it. Either for their own personal gain, some other type of gain or just because they've been brainwashed to think they're "saving" you.

Although there have been scientific studies where religous people (from various faiths including christian nuns and buddhists, etc) have undergone some kind of neurobiological change when they pray/meditate.
Suprisingly they both have the same kind of brain activity, which (depending on what you believe, I suppose) means that there is either some of kind "real" super being or nirvana or whatever or that the human brain is just wired to make us "happy" when we believe in whatever it is enough..
Personally i'm for the latter, that we can "fool" our brains into this state of being where something happens where we feel we're in touch with god or the universe or nature or the oneness or whatever.

But anyway, there you go. That's what I think based on what I've read. Something _really_ happens to our brains if you believe hard enough, but that alone proves NOTHING.

[identity profile] paka.livejournal.com 2006-03-23 11:18 pm (UTC)(link)
Ergh, I hope I haven't aggrevated anything, myself. I hope you don't decide to un-friend me.

I have my own thoughts on the issue, but ehhh, I'm a little afraid to bring 'em up here. I'd rather talk to you about it, 'cause that way if I get told I'm a total idiot, at least I'm around my friend telling me I'm a total idiot. Better yet, we might get distracted and do something else entirely, like draw, or eat dim sum, or watch cartoons or read bad comics.

In general (and because you could probably use some crassness) I believe spirituality is a little like masturbation. Pretty personal stuff where a fair batch of the population don't even vaguely go about it the same way, and even people wired similarly to me might not get off on what gets me off. So preaching any one true way of doing it is pretty limited.

[identity profile] circuit-four.livejournal.com 2006-03-24 01:56 am (UTC)(link)
I'm probably gonna do a point-by-point takedown on this post if I get a chance this weekend. Nothing personal, I actually appreciate the challenge. :)

In the meantime, a little fodder for your side. I mean, I know that your post wasn't directed solely against one religion but... where the fuck is the rest of American Christianity on this?! Oh, right, busy waving the flag, or saving the lives of people who don't even have brain stems yet... a disability which apparently still makes them more worthwhile than that of having brown skin. -.-

Page 1 of 2